Emma Brodie - SONGS IN URSA MAJOR

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

book, writing, Ursa Major, songs, editor, wonderful, happening, thinking, Joni Mitchell, music, read, Jane, author, music festivals, ended, JT, working, lyrics, story

SPEAKERS

Cindy Burnett, Emma Brodie

Cindy Burnett  00:05

This is the Thoughts from a Page Podcast, which is now a member of the Evergreen Podcasts Network. The Thoughts from my Page Podcast just turned one! And I want to say thanks so much to everyone who has supported me on this wonderful journey. It's truly been amazing so far. Now that I have found my footing and have a year of episodes behind me, I am ready to start offering some bonus content and extras to those who want to become a part of my Page Turners group on Patreon. If you are ready to take the next step and join me, you will have access to at least two bonus episodes a month one will be me chatting about books, what I've loved, haven't loved, DNF'ed and why, thematic talks and more. And the second will be two different bookstagrammars each month chatting together about their journeys and their book recommendations. I will also be including a preview list of upcoming author interviews by month and other behind-the-scenes content. I am so excited to have an interactive community where we can all talk books and provide some special behind-the-scenes and patron-only content here. I hope you'll join me. The link to find out more is in the show notes and on my website under the Support tab. Thanks for considering it. Today I am interviewing Emma Brodie about Songs in Ursa Major. Emma is currently an executive editor at Little Browns Voracious imprint. Over her 10 years in book publishing, she's worked at Trident Media Group, William Morrow and Clarkson Potter. She lives in Brooklyn with her husband and their dog Freddie Mercury. Songs in Ursa Major is one of my favorite books of 2021, and it is one of my July Buzz Reads picks. I had a fabulous time chatting with Emma about it, and I hope you enjoy our conversation. Welcome, Emma, how are you today?

Emma Brodie  01:46

I'm so well Cindy, how are you?

Cindy Burnett  01:49

I am so well too, because I am thrilled to pieces that you were here. Songs in Ursa Major is my favorite books I have read this year. And I'm just so excited that we get to speak with each other.

Emma Brodie  01:59

Oh my God. Well, that is so lovely of you to say, and I'm thrilled to be here. You're the most wonderful books citizen. So this is a really exciting for me as well.

Cindy Burnett  02:08

Thank you. Well, why don't we start out with you talking a little bit about the book for people that haven't read it yet?

Emma Brodie  02:14

Sure. All right. Well, Songs in Ursa Major is a historical romance, set in 1969 and in 1970, about this young singer songwriter Jane Quinn, who lives on an island off the coast of Massachusetts, and is basically in a garage band. And then through a series of random coincidences, she ends up being slotted in at this music festival as the essentially opening act. And from there, she's catapulted into the stratosphere of the folk rock movement of that time. And she has this incredible love story with a fellow musician who's you know, further along in his career, and she's sort of stuck between her love for him and the preferential treatment he receives by the music industry. And basically, what ends up happening is through various ups and downs in her career, she ultimately writes this seminal confessional album Songs in Ursa Major. And it's sort of the story of what goes into that, and then what results from it.

Cindy Burnett  03:15

How did you end up writing about this topic? I love that era of music. And I absolutely love James Taylor. And I didn't even realize that James Taylor and Joni Mitchell had had a relationship at all. I know you loosely based the story on them. And you can talk a little bit about that. But that was something I was completely unaware of.

Emma Brodie  03:32

Same. I think it's a fact that it's just hidden in plain sight. They both talk about it openly. It's not a secret. But I think everyone is so trained to think of JT as with Carly Simon, because they were married for 10 years. And it was such a star-studded marriage. And his image is so different from Joni's, and they both become these like six-decade-long stars, that the fact no matter how many times it's repeated, just bounces off people's heads. So everyone is surprised to learn that they had a relationship. And I certainly was and the reason it kind of inspired me basically, basically, it started for me when I realized that You Can Close Your Eyes was originally written about Joni Mitchell, which was a fact that kind of slowly emerged, as I realized they were dating. I was reading Carly Simon's autobiography. And she had a reference to meeting JT backstage at the Troubadour. And Joni Mitchell was with him, and she just had this sort of offhanded appositive clause "as his girlfriend at the time" and I was like, What? And then the more I read about it, or tried to read about it, because the truth is there really isn't a lot of history about them, the more fascinated I became, and I realized ultimately that JT largely inspired Joni's album Blue, and Blue is so famous. If people have one Joni album, it's Blue. And the idea that it had been written about this star that everyone still knows but doesn't associate with, it just kind of blew my mind. And from there, these ideas just started kind of pouring in and pouring out. And there's a lot in the book that's taken from JT and Joni. And then there's a lot that's just completely made up. But definitely the idea of this song, transcending a relationship and losing its origins is something that I wanted to carry through the book and explore.

Cindy Burnett  05:34

I loved that the kernel of the story came from them, but obviously, then you're writing your story, and it's going in different directions. And I really liked the focus on Jane and the fact that as a female, she was treated so differently. And we can talk a little bit about that in a minute, because that was just such a frustration to me.

Emma Brodie  05:51

It's pretty interesting I think. It all just kind of evolved organically as I was writing it, because I was really trying to think like, with my business hat on, like, what would what would be happening in these studios. And part of what I know my parents cherish about that time period is the idea that all these musicians are friends, but working in media, and just thinking it through and knowing how they all dated, and it was this sort of emotionally incestuous pool, I started to think like, how much of this was positioning and how much of it was actual love? And I think there are real lasting friendships that came out of that time. And certainly, all the drama has died down. And they're all basically copacetic at this point. But I wanted to sort of pick out like, what must have really been happening and who was protected and who wasn't. And I think that being a star then had a completely different kind of visibility, you were able to get away with a lot more, because you were just less scrutinized. And at the same time, I think the women would have always been more scrutinized or scrutinized in a similar way as they are now and commodified. So I wanted to see what that would have looked like as a woman walking into that room and sort of pick apart like, how would you handle it? How would it have gone? If you were willing to stand your ground as so many of these iconic women who inspired Jane were?

Cindy Burnett  07:17

I agree with that completely. And back to your research, I kept googling as I was reading. And I could find so little on James Taylor and Joni Mitchell; I couldn't believe it. I came across a guy who had worked at a record store in North Carolina in like 1971, and his account of the two of them coming in at Christmas. And he was buying all this music and all this stuff. And she then I guess loaned a painting to the bookstore that she'd painted of James Taylor. So that was all very fascinating, but I couldn't even find very much else. So I was impressed that you were able to dig a little deeper and find some details that at least got your story started.

Emma Brodie  07:52

I mean a lot of it was just listening to the songs like once you realize that he is Blue, you can sort of make inferences based on what's in it because Joanie is so descriptive and nuanced in her, I was about to say in her reporting, in her recording and in her lyrics. It's so interesting. I've actually heard from someone in South Carolina about that exact same visit just anecdotally. So apparently, there's this one part of the country that saw them on this one vacation, but a lot of what I couldn't find that's sort of where the creativity of the book came in. And to be honest, there's just not a lot left from that time, like this relationship is 50 years old. So you know, things like there is a Christmas scene in the book that was just inspired purely by River because it's the most wonderful Christmas song and I think gets that the sadness surrounding the holidays and how you know, it's supposed to be like Christmas card perfect, and it never ever is. And there are other parts of the book like later on, Jane ends up in Matala, which was totally inspired by Carey. They're things that were just purely like, based on my love of that album and those songs and using them more as prompts than as a basis for anything.

Cindy Burnett  09:10

It's such a fabulous era of music. It still really remains my favorite. And I listened regularly to a bunch of those artists. So it was very fun to kind of be taken back in time, just to the era generally and stories about what music was like coming out then and the music festivals and like you talked about how a lot of them were friends with each other. Now, did you write the lyrics that are in the songs in the book?

Emma Brodie  09:33

I did, yeah. I did write the lyrics that are in the book.

Cindy Burnett  09:36

How was that? I mean, do you have a music background because I was very impressed with both the lyrics but also just all of the music talk. I mean, you write very fluently about music.

Emma Brodie  09:48

I love that word fluently. I think that's a gift from my mother who is a musician, and so I grew up sort of having music as a language in the house and was gifted a lot of understanding through her. And my brother's also really talented. I love being around musicians, and I love being part of music. I've never really wanted to be the Jane. I was in a college acapella group, which was one of the highlights of my life. And I credit I acknowledge them in the book. Like, that's definitely how I knew the band dynamics. And I think that's also why when it came time to write the parts of a four-part band, I understood like what a baseline needed to sound like, and what you know, a second guitar might contribute. And the rest of it was just, you know, reading these biographies you glean sort of the vocabulary and anything, the internet such a gift, like anything that I really needed a specific on, I could I could mine through different articles and find what I needed to sort of imitate a real music writer.

Cindy Burnett  10:51

I agree with that. But I do feel like no matter how much research you do with something like this, unless you have what you're describing, maybe experience in a musical group or a mother who brought you up around music all the time, it's hard to recreate that. So I knew you must have some something that you know, from your past that was helping you do that, because it was just so eloquent.

Emma Brodie  11:12

Oh, that's so lovely. Yeah, it was a blast to write. And I was just totally carried away with the fun of it. And then afterwards, when I was going back and trying to edit it, and polish it and make it good, then I was like, you know, there's a lot in here that I just kind of assumed I would go back and have to change. And really like, thanks to my mom like this kind of works. And that's pretty great. So thanks, mom.

Cindy Burnett  11:37

That is pretty great. And then your brother wrote the music for some of the songs that you penned the lyrics for? Is that correct for the book?

Emma Brodie  11:44

Yeah, it is. So basically, I wrote the book, over the summer of 2019. I've been thinking about it for a year. And then I finally sat down to do it. And I rested the manuscript for about six weeks, because I was actually getting married. And I wanted to be still thinking about it. But I was trying to resist the urge to go back and tinker, because you really should give your writing some space when you're in that moment. And my little brother, who is a wonderful musician, was free. And I think feeling, you know, we were feeling close, because I was about to get married. Our family was about to go through this big thing. And he would sort of send me different requests for lyrics. And I had all these songs that I was working on, just to kind of keep my toe in between the drafts of the novel. And he ended up writing a bunch of them. And it was so cool to actually see them work. Because I had essentially built them, you know, not necessarily thinking they would carry weight, it's sort of like building model furniture in that way. Like, it just needs to look good, it doesn't necessarily need to sound good. So then to see that they actually could become real songs was so gratifying. And then also, he would adjust them inadvertently when he was composing because you know, a lyric wouldn't work or the syllable count would be off. And because of that, I was able to go back and make the songs even better. So I think there's a little bit of a secret sauce because some of them were played through, and it was really, really joyful and wonderful. And then to have the songs when I was working on it. I think, you know, we're all artists in an interdependent network. And I obviously listened to a ton of music from the era but then to also have this sort of proto Ursa Major soundtrack that only I had it felt very like auto-generative to just be alone with like my own juices, kind of and my brother's I guess. It's kind of cool.

Cindy Burnett  13:39

I think it's so cool. I think you should have it recorded.

Emma Brodie  13:42

Well, Ben actually just produced Wallflower with a bunch of his friends, and they got this amazing female vocalist. She sounds phenomenal. And PRH, my publisher, is going to do a little music video, so that will be out probably around when the book goes on sale in a couple weeks. I'm so excited to share it. I think it's gonna be so cool. And the recording sounds like ah, so nostalgic, and just like, it sounds like a movie score. Like I think he did a great job.

Cindy Burnett  14:13

Well, I can't wait for that. I'm going to keep an eye out because that sounds awesome. Because I was thinking when I had heard you had written the lyrics and then he was writing the music. I'm like, well, they need to record this.

Emma Brodie  14:25

It's arranged and everything. We had all these conversations because it starts with like a rock orgon, which is a sound that's not really a part of the JT/Joni canon, although actually okay, so JT is first album had a lot of weird like, added on bits because the Beatles produced it, but after that it was all acoustic until the 80s. So the rock organ is a little weird, but I love it. I think it works just because it sounds so good. And sometimes you have to be a little anachronistic so it's fine.

Cindy Burnett  14:51

Absolutely. Put your own stamp on it. Well, you work in the publishing industry. So what was that like having a background in publishing and understanding what it's like to get a book out into the world, and then writing your own book. How did that influence your writing?

Emma Brodie  15:07

Such a good question. I think, you know, it's like any situation where you know too much. At a certain point, if you're going to do it, you have to just do it. It's a bit like, you know, being a heart surgeon, and you know everything that can go right and everything that that go can go wrong, but you have to just go under and let the procedure happen. I think it took me about 15,000 words. I actually started the story in the like, present moment; I had this whole other idea. And I just kept hearing one of my colleagues in in my head, and she kept saying, like, you know, this story's really fun, but it's small. At a certain point, I had to kind of face the music, for lack of a better phrase and be like, it would be better if I wrote about the Jane character, and she wasn't dead, which was how it was in my original version. And then from that point on, I think I had written about 15,000 words and throwing that out, like the act of courage of doing that kind of catapulted me into this different level creatively. And from there, it was just like off to the races. And it was really, really, really fascinating. And then, you know, after selling the book, going into the process, I loved working with my editor.  I have a wonderful editor, Jenny Jackson, and I loved actually working on the manuscript. And then there's always this like, wait that happens between when you finish the book and when it comes out. And I think that's been the hardest thing to endure, because I, you know, I know all the things that could be happening, but I'm only allowed to ask to a certain point, or I only allow myself to ask to a certain point, if we're being honest. It's been a trip, but it's definitely given me more empathy for my authors. It's definitely given me a different insight into this process. And yeah, invaluable experience, very, very fascinating.

Cindy Burnett  16:57

I was thinking about asking you the flip side of what you just stated - what it was like, as an editor, to be on the author side and working with an editor, but I hadn't thought about what you just mentioned, which was learning more about being an editor when you're on the other side of it. So that's interesting that you will now have a different perspective when you're working with your authors.

Emma Brodie  17:17

Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, I think it's made me, I mean, I've always fought pretty hard for my authors, but it's made me fight even harder. And then at the same time, I think like, I'm trying, what I'm trying to do is walk that line where what I know, doesn't inhibit me as an author from asking questions that I think I know the answers to. So it's learning all around, to be honest. And I'm definitely a first-time author, like, no matter what you know, like, there's just so much you don't know until you go through it yourself. And sometimes I'll even email my editor to be like, I need to play the first-time author card, like, please talk to me as if I don't know anything, because I really don't.

Cindy Burnett  18:00

I think that's the case with anything new. And you know, until you actually jump in, you can prepare yourself as best as possible, you can have the experience you're talking about of being an editor for a long period of time. But until you actually do it, there's just so much you just can't figure it out until you're actually doing it. I mean, I feel like that with the podcast, I did so much research, and you know, ahead of time, and I felt like I was so prepared. But then there were still a number of things that over time I had to work out. And I think you just have to get started eventually, and then you'll learn.

Emma Brodie  18:31

It's so true. I think the same thing is true for writing. Like you have to just be in it at a certain point.

Cindy Burnett  18:38

Did you always know you wanted to be a writer or after being an editor for a long time did you think - oh, maybe I should write?

Emma Brodie  18:44

No, I've always wanted to be a writer. And I got into publishing with that very clearly in mind. And my path has been very interesting, like through the industry. Like I've always been open about the fact that I write which is extremely rare. And what ended up happening was, after about a year, I ended up at this really wonderful imprint at Crown Books called Clarkson Potter, where they do a lot of package-driven stuff. That's where I learned how to be a packager. And they did a lot of proprietary original IP. So I actually wrote like 25 games, journals, decks, gift books for Potter as original IP, and was kind of this like in-house writer for them. And I also was acquiring along the side, like, that's the job where I acquired Aquafina's first book, but it was this really wonderful exposure to like getting to be inside the process without actually having to have my name out there. And there were times where like, when something would take off, then I'd be like, maybe I should have put my name on that.

Cindy Burnett  19:45

Now, can we add my name real quick, please?

Emma Brodie  19:49

Exactly. It's something that I've always managed to work into my job. I've been an editor for 10 years now. And I've now separated out the writing piece, like now I have my author hat. And then at work, I just acquire and edit other people's books, which I think is exactly how it should have ended up. But I've always wanted to write, and I've always wanted to pursue this. So it's been really great to be able to grow both tracks simultaneously. And then to sort of see them develop.

Cindy Burnett  20:23

So what was it like, as an editor, and you have your book ready to go, and then you have an agent and trying to sell that manuscript. Was that easier or harder, or really no different than anyone else?

Emma Brodie  20:35

I don't know. So I had a very easy sale, which was due to things completely beyond my control. Basically, my editor fell in love with the book and decided to preempt it. So it happened very, very fast. And I think any author that's in that situation, or has had the good fortune to be in that situation is basically relieved of the anxiety of having to wait for reads and see what happens. The timing of it was very strange, because we had always planned to go out with this book, first week in April, the thought process being it's a summery, fun read, we want people to be like, feeling excited and come out of March and be ready to like, think about, you know, music festivals, this and that. But it was April of 2020. So there were all these really scary things happening around me all the time. Like at that point, we were living in Brooklyn, and it was, you know, everything was changing on a daily basis. And the stakes were really high of just everyday life for every single person in the world. So selling my book was, it was so shrunk by what was happening in the world, like I was anxious about it, I must have been, but at the same time, it just seemed like, well, I'm so happy that we can have the timing we planned anyway, because everything else has been delayed. So I was really thrilled to be able to be going out with it as planned. And also like, well, if this doesn't sell, like there are things that are more important right now than like how I look to my colleagues, or what the industry thinks if they reject this. So I was kind of like, weirdly, I don't know, like the timing ended up being strangely fortuitous in terms of keeping, like my own ego in check if that makes sense.

Cindy Burnett  22:22

It does. Speaking of your book, the book has also been optioned for film, and you're the screenwriter. How did all of that come about?

Emma Brodie  22:29

That also happened really organically. My agent has a co-agent relationship with WME, and I have a wonderful screen agent, and she sold it in April of last year. And writing it sort of came up during the negotiation. And I just threw my hat in the ring. And my producers were really wonderful and totally embraced the idea. And we worked on it all last year. And I think they're out with it to directors right now, actually. So we're now at that point in the process. And I kind of can't believe it. It was a really wonderful process and a completely different skill set that I have now learned. It was nuts.

Cindy Burnett  23:13

I think it's got to be totally different. Because when you're writing a book, you're really having to fill in all of the details and let the reader try to, you know, bring it all to life in their mind. But when you're writing a screenplay, it's got to be totally different. And they're gonna already be seeing everything, and I just can't wait for that. That will just be such a fabulous film.

Emma Brodie  23:32

Yeah, fingers crossed that everything works out. But it was so wonderful to (a) have these amazing people teaching me and (b) just getting to envision the story in this whole other way. I feel like whenever you're writing a book, there are these ghost versions of like the paths not taken. And so some of the paths not taken in the book ended up being really great fits for the film, and getting to sort of see these other versions come into play and sort of to also understand like, oh, this is why movies are patterned like this. Oh, this is this thing that I've always questioned, but now I see the purpose of it. Like getting to see the anatomy of a film in a completely different way was really wonderful. And yeah, I cannot wait. If the movie ends up getting made, I will be so excited just to see the stuff performed that I've been thinking about for so long.

Cindy Burnett  24:29

What about title and cover? Those are always things that I am fascinated to hear about. I think so much more goes into that then readers sometimes realize. So let's talk a little bit about your title because it's an interesting title, both the title of Jane's album and the title of the book, and then I'd love to hear how your cover came about.

Emma Brodie  24:45

Yeah, the title. Both of these are just kind of like quick answers to be honest. The title was always the title that I wanted. I came up with Songs in Ursa Major when I was actually trying to figure out what Jane's band should be called. I was flipping through this tarot deck that I have. It's a really wonderful animal spirit guide deck by this incredible illustrator Kim Krans. And I kept drawing the bear card for some reason, no matter how much i'd shuffle. And so, you know, my brain is like partially geared towards thinking about like, what are the patterns I'm interacting with? like is this is this cosmically meant to be? And I was like, well, okay, like there, Ursa. And then I was like, oh, Ursa Major, this is good, because it's the Big Dipper. It's a spoon, which I knew that Jesse was struggling with addiction. So that's like a perfect tie in to that. And then also, like, there's, there are these constellations that mirror each other, or Ursa Major, Ursa Minor, which fits in really well with the theme of codependency in the book. And also, you know, Jane's trying to figure out her relationship with her mother. And all of that kind of thematically just jelled. And it's like a great little pun, because it could be like, you know, songs, and a minor and a or a major rather. And so I had a little bit of a debate about whether we wanted to do Ursa Major or Minor, I liked that it was major. And from there, I was just really lucky that everyone else seemed to kind of heart the vision and go along with it. And then the cover was really my publisher. And my editor had a very strong feelings for this, this version. I saw a bunch of different takes. And originally it came in orange, and I wanted to skew more blue because obviously, Joni's's Blue is huge. And the final version came out this like sort of turquoise/green color, which I think is really pretty. And my favorite part about it is the font. I think the font is so cool. And there have been a bunch of books that have come out about singer/songwriters from this era, like female-driven singer/songwriters. And I love that it's a little bit different. Like I love that the font is so crisp, and also like, still harkens back to that era. The final thing came in and it just looks so clean and sleek, and just, it's beautiful. I'm so so lucky.

Cindy Burnett  26:56

It is beautiful. And I was just gonna mention the font. So you beat me to it. I love the font. I think it is very crisp. And it's unique and it stands out. Well, what about on the writing side of it? Are you working on a new book yet or are you just enjoying getting this one out into the world?

Emma Brodie  27:10

I have a new idea that I'm really excited about not quite ready to share it widely. But yeah, getting to sort of be back in that phase of things has definitely helped mitigate the nerves of having the first one go on sale. Like having this little slice of my own controlled universe back is so good. I love this part of it. Like I love when everything's new, and you're just sort of in the world for the first time exploring. So yeah, hopefully we'll have more to share about that soon.

Cindy Burnett  27:41

Well, and you've been busy writing the screenplay, and there's just been so much other stuff happening in the world. So that makes perfect sense. Your timing is good on your book coming out because things are at least starting to open up a little bit. So hopefully that will also be nice for you.

Emma Brodie  27:56

Yeah, I hope that people are able to grab a copy and go to the beach, because that's what it was it was written for - that purpose, like, go out, enjoy it in the sun and then cry, because that's the other thing that it was written for.

Cindy Burnett  28:12

Well, without spoiling it, I will say that I loved the ending. As I was getting toward the end, I was like, Oh, I really hope this is not going to go in the way that I don't want it to go. So that's all I'll say is that I was very pleased with the ending. So I was glad that you wrapped it up the way you did.

Emma Brodie  28:28

Yes, that's what you want.

Cindy Burnett  28:29

Exactly. Because I didn't want it to wrap up where you were like, oh, that's exactly what everyone's gonna expect. So I was very glad that you went the way that you did.

Emma Brodie  28:38

Thank you. Yeah, it's always hard to say goodbye. But there you go.

Cindy Burnett  28:43

Exactly. Well, what about books you've read recently that you really liked.

Emma Brodie  28:48

Well, my favorite book that I've read this year, I was like a little bit late to this party, it was Mexican Gothic by Silvia Marino-Garcia. It's so good. She is just an elegant writer. She comes from sci fi. And then this was her first sort of like Gothic book. And the characters are just really well drawn. It gets it all this really like meaty stuff, but in this way that's so propulsive and wonderful. And I'm really good at guessing the endings of books, and I just did not see where this was going to go at all. So highly recommended. She actually has another one coming out on August 17, called Velvet Was the Night, and the cover looks phenomenal. Like the whole thing looks great. So I'm really excited for that when it comes out. And then there's this book that's coming out on July 13, called A Touch of Jen by this wonderful writer Beth Morgan, and it is zany. It's basically like this commentary on social media and like what our lives are like and then it goes off the rails into the horror realm in this way that's just like beyond satisfying and fun. And I cannot wait for everyone to read this book because I need to talk about it with other people. And the cover is insane looking, and the whole thing is just great. So that one's called A Touch of Jen. I'm really excited for everyone to get their hands on it. So I can selfishly talk about it more.

Cindy Burnett  30:05

I haven't even heard of that one. Now I'm gonna have to look up this crazy cover.

Emma Brodie  30:09

Oh, yeah, yeah, it's I mean, it's like, how do we how to even describe it? It's millennial pink. It's a picture of a woman crawling over the cover. And you can see like the peach of her butt; it's amazing. It's like, just the most like provocative, fascinating book cover, and I can't wait for other people read this book.

Cindy Burnett  30:29

Emma, I am just thrilled to pieces that you join me today on the Thoughts from a Page podcast. I truly loved Songs in Ursa Major. And I know everybody else will, like you said, it's the perfect book for the beach, or just a staycation or reading by the pool or wherever you are. So thanks for taking the time to come speak with me.

Emma Brodie  30:45

Oh, thank you so much for having me. This was such a blast, and I hope you have a really wonderful summer.

Cindy Burnett  30:50

Thank you. I hope you do too. Thank you so much for listening to my podcast. If you like this episode, please follow me on Instagram at @thoughtsfromapage, tell all of your friends about the podcast, and rate it or subscribe to it wherever you listen to your podcasts. I am so grateful for your support. Emma's book can be purchased at the Conversations from a Page Bookshop storefront, and the link is in the show notes. I hope you'll tune in next time.